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river class opv upgrade

Five-pannier LMM launcher mounted on the 30mm ASCG – trialled on board HMS Sutherland in July 2019. It is because we potentially have a REAL task here. The 40mm seems a given. I like the idea someone had of using up the old Artisan from the T23s, if it doesn’t ruin the (apparently impressive) sea keeping capabilities of the vessel by being too top heavy. As far as other stuff goes, I’d not fit anything other than a telescopic hangar, as I’d want to still be able to carry containers. I understand 3 River B1 OPV was intended to replace 7 Island class on 1-by-1 basis, not in view of hull number, but in total-sea-going-days (thanks to its long sea-going days and high sea-worthyness). I must say that having the .40 mm bofors seems a no brainer to me. Wildcat could then be aligned to the C2 and C3 platforms with the Merlin aligned to the C1. It’s not well armed enough for anything else. Send them anywhere where there are likely to be subs and they’d be sitting ducks. So I reckon option 1+2 is the way to go for Somalia anti piracy and Iranian Revolutionary Guard FIAC. Rather radical, I actually hope to cancel T31 program, to save 2B GBP. Note the fire-control radar for the 76mm gun and the soft-kill decoy launchers forward of the bridge. I really like your recycling ARTISAN if that can be done without too much expense (I’m a big fan of reusing systems that outlive their platforms). Again the reality is if for example Iran fired of a land based anti Ship missile at anything both the UK & USA are going to be sending some pretty large amounts of Steel to the region. With the 8 OPV’s we have soon we will be back into the 3 tier “fleet” the RN was looking at in the early 2000’s, C1 being high end specialist escort (ASW or AAW T26 and T45 totalling 14 platforms), C2 being general escorts and low intensity patrol (T31 and B2 OPV totalling 9 platforms (increase to 12 if T31 increased)) and C3 being your MCMV and other patrol vessels etc (potentially up to 16 platforms) giving a total “fleet” of around 40 vessels which isn’t too bad. So my overall configuration for littoral combat Batch II would be 1x 40 mm, 2x 30mm each with LMM, 2x mini guns, 1x SeaRam/16.5 ton crane, 2x 6 Sea Spear, 2x CamCopter S-100 and 2x Pacific 24 RIBS with a lillypad for Merlin II helicopters and don’t forget 50 Royal marines. http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2020/august/8877-royal-navy-s-new-patrol-vessel-hms-tamar-is-ready-for-action-and-will-be-based-in-portsmouth.html, Fifth and last of class is conducting sea trials. You can even carry on building another 4 T31s, one every year, increasing the total number of frigates to 17, and still not have a manning issue (that comes from the programme). You could run two S-100s off a River with no real problem, but an MQ-8 at around half the price of a Merlin would be a considered purchase. Re: River Class (OPV) (RN) Post by Caribbean » Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:57 am If the money is there, I agree, but I suspect that any upgrade to the B2s will be financed out of the rounding errors on other projects. Yes, I’m being facetious but why do they always start with the weakest option and then spend millions on development, causing delays in building or a vessel’s withdrawal from service for months, maybe years. The complete Artisan system i.e. Basically 8 escorts when a carrier is deployed, with 2 doing non-carrier related duties, and 4 doing non-carrier duties when a CV is not deployed. The problem is it doesn’t have the punch or flexibility of the larger 57mm (6 pounder!!!) WVR weapons for overwatch / hard stops. It can be used against small boats, UAVs and some aircraft. Big and well armed enough to defend themselves and shipping in the vicinity and to have decent survivability/endurance, but also simple and cheap enough (hopefully) to be procured in greater numbers and allow the high-end surface vessels to concentrate on their primary role of escorting the fleet’s capital ships. If we cut T26 numbers to 6 that would enable us to build more R2 and T31 and arm them better. Fitting the army loader from the army version of sea ceptor would be useful if fitted to cam copter iso container. (Photo: Kawin Prayoonyuang). With the MQ-8B you get a platform that’s our US allies have extensive experience of using. T31 may be in the water sometime in 2023, but it won’t commission until some time in 2025 if we are lucky (more likely 2026 – later if not in the water on time). If we did want coastal ASW, would a mini towed array sonar, like the DSIT Swordfish, that only needs a small winch & thin wire, be suitable? A flight of 12 Fighters can put as many missiles in the air as a single T45 has. For this purpose, a 25 tonne capacity crane is fitted. I mostly agree with your recommendations. It was “1.25B GBP” at the beginning of discussion, inflating to current value. An independent online campaign to promote the Royal Navy. Wonder why the choice of the Schiebel Camcopter S-100 instead of the Insitu Scaneagle, if remember RN had successful trials with one in the Gulf on a T23, using a wing instead of blades Scaneagle endurance approx three times that of a S-100. Remote-controlled or suicide FIACs are a possibility now. Add option 3 and you have ‘some’ defence against Yemeni rebel AShM but not against Iranian Navy who are professionals. Could be a new ship type. Leave the OPVs to open ocean constabulary and use some boats like the Fs65 for low intensity combat roles. There. Change ). “Fiddly launch and retrieval system” is a bit of an understatement! Back to the days of WW11 when someone is going to have to physically re-arm the gun…..and considering where it’s mounted on the Type 31 Corvette, that is not going to be easy, specially in the middle of a fight…. This is rounded off with a full military communications fit, military GPS and Warship Electronic Chart Display and Information System (WECDIS). They might be escorting Russian warships through UK EEZ; facing off against. This is probably the best recommendation of the whole thread. This is the more affordable and more likely type of solution that could be adopted. They can all fire smart ammo, although my preference is the Oerlikon Millennium Gun which can send out a cone of 152 tungsten projectiles and which I’d have thought would be very likely to destroy any missile it’s fired at. But one of the design drivers for the Castles was a flight deck because the helicopter in today’s marine environment the helicopter is important. Which is also why they shouldn’t be up-armed (much), they need to do the low intensity stuff as efficiently, and dare I say as cheaply, as possible. Not as good I grant you, but a better chance of keeping you in the game. Head to head, my 5 x T31 outclass 2 x UK spec T26 for less money. On the other hand, if they fail to add a hangar, being prepared to add ASCMs, quickly might be wise. It might even be possible to go full-on “Type 31 Lite” and replace the 30mms with two 40mm Mk4s. The pressure will then be to send them into harms way, at which point all of the hard lessons of the Falklands war would have been forgotten and we will loss these ships and their crews if the worst happens. ( Log Out /  The UAV would be much much cheaper than a Wildcat, whilst still providing vastly extended surveillance capability. To be out there, what about a Sinbad mount & Mistral missiles? So then suggest the equipment that achieves 1 to 4 make it light in manpower, able to operate 309 days a year, non hull invasive and to honest the cheapest ready to bolt on equipment available. That’s before you start considering whether keeping a missile in service well beyond its design life is a sensible, safe or affordable option. I’d call it a Sloop. It’s not as mature as the smaller Camcopter or the V-200 Skeldar, but it might be the closest to your “S-100 Max” that’s near deployable. Royal Thai Navy’s second offshore patrol vessel based on the River class, HTMS Prachuap Khiri Khan (OPV 552) constructed by Bangkok Dock Ltd and poised for induction into service. Fit the NS200 radar & 32 mk41 & 127mm (or even 76mm) plus 8 NSM to T31 & you will have a world class GP frigate. Purchase Starstreak II in 6-round naval launchers for a 7km/16k foot air-defence capability. They have the three River class Batch I OPVs to do fisheries around the home turf, so they plan to use most of these in the overseas territories or providing presence in distant theaters of operation. It was my fault. That would give the RN a small ship with a big punch within limitations 25km. Will a Merlin HM2 be *permanently* embarked on Type 31s? You are at least 18 years of age and your driver license is not a provisional or learner license. The rivers certainly don’t need Harpoon but a weapons fit of; 57mm, Sea Spear and 2 x 30mm with LMM option would give plenty of bite. There is allocated space on a T45 for 16 more cells. The article claims the Rivers are ‘lacking the space even for a compact towed array sonar’. I’d also like us to start building diesel-electric subs again. That is because there are not enough RN (and Marine Scotland) hulls to do the job. Unlike Phalanx which fires bullets, the Millennium Gun firing airburst ammo is more like a shotgun and so more likely to hit its target using fewer rounds. The ASCG system according to Wikipedia cost the MOD US$30 million to purchase 26 for the Type 23 so I expect a new buy to be less than US$2 million per system and 10 would be needed for the OPVs or they can be taken off the retiring Type 23s. As a light SSM with a 25-30km range it could fire to port or starboard. PREMIUM: Taiwan launches new corvette and commissions minelayer. But, we must not forget its negative side, as well. This will expedite any potential future repair … A 76 MM gun or the 57 MM Bofors would be far better for the River class OPV. Use of reservists or part-time civilians will solve the manning problems since essentially only 2 vessels need to be ready at anytime with the other 2 in reserve or repairs. The Terma Scanter 2D air and surface search radar that currently equips the OPVs is advertised as having fire-control capability but it is possible it may need to be replaced with something more capable for use with the Mk4. How would an OPV designed to RN requirements differ? Equally send them anywhere where they are likely to be targetted by anti-ship missiles and I can’t see them surviving for long. The main reason for the inclusion of LMM is the missile’s flexibility. Whilst in ideal world T31’s and other bigger ships would be doing this the reality is that we don’t have the numbers or crew or at sea days to cover everything. I don’t think a helicopter is really an option; to start with we just don’t have spare Wildcats and the telescopic hanger is a far from perfect solution. The two Thai OPVs do not carry a crane abaft the funnel instead, the second ship has mounts for Harpoon AShM. On 31 October 2017 the Royal Navy's Batch 1 River-class offshore patrol ship (OPV) HMS Severn was decommissioned at a ceremony in HM Naval Base … The 40mm can use the 3P round, which has a multi-purpose programmable fuze, it is not a guided round like the 57’s ORKA round. Ideal for use against potential threats whose identity and intentions may be uncertain. They can also be weaponised by adding a pair of LMM Martlet missiles which could be used against small craft at distance if needed. Classified as Batch 2 River-class Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPV) HMS Forth and her sisters – HMS Trent, Medway, Tamar and Spey – are a significant upgrade on HMS Tyne, Severn, Mersey and Clyde, which were designed and built 15 years ago. In this case, we get the remaining 1B GBP. No one with any sense is going to put a fighter within range of a T45 on a real rather than demo scenario. But it explains why you said they can’t man the new ones. Even that might be too expensive. Thanks to upgraded fire control if there is an upgrade, in an emergency surge, the containerised UAVs could be landed and replaced by SSMs (other ships providing targeting), or containerised seaceptor or containerised CAPTAS 2 sonar with weight allowance for a triple tube ASW torpedo launcher. That’s why it would also be wise to have DS30Ms enhanced with LMMs as well as Schiebel Camcopter S-100s with LMMs. Even if you uparm Batch 2 River OPVs, you’re still left with a noisy diesel-powered vessel. But seeing the reasons why the Castles were procured with one then perhaps the B1’s should have had one too? At least 3 batch 2 up gunned to the plus with 40mm, 3x 30mm and camcopters with martlets to extend range one in the caribean, one in the med/black sea and kept back for general duties, the other 2 batch 2s should get the 57mm, 2 x 30mm camcopter with martlets one being based in falklands the other in the north sea to keep russians at bay. Over weaponising the OPV’s will just lead to them being sent to areas too hot to handle. Wikipedia quotes a single Spike NLOS as 70kg. That aside, I’ve read that Martlet has comparable surface-to-air ability anyway. RAN have gone with the Scanter 6000 & 40mm combo. The existing 30mm cannon could be moved from the foredeck to one of the waist positions abaft of the bridge and another 30mm added on the other side. I agree you get what you pay for, but what do you want the MQ-8B to achieve? But then in addition to towed array sonars, they’d also need VL-ASROC, Merlin HM2s, bow sonar and SSTD. The Mk 110 has a high rate of fire for its size and can lay down 4 rounds per second out to about 17km. So what do we need these Ships to do 1: Protect Merchant shipping from small boat & OPV attack and “arrest” by state players such as Iran/China. I mean MANTIS, which is essentially the same weapon but land based, is expressly designed to take out rockets, artillery and mortars. While you were speaking in terms of does the RN have need of new FP hulls? “The Rivers _are_ mobile border-force cutters” – I’m glad someone finally said it. However, RN escorts sea-going days have seen remarkable drop from 2010. HMS Medway, the second Batch 2 River class OPV, entered the fleet in September 2019. Just by combineing everything under one roof the UK would have 38 boats to protect UK waters without any increase in budgets or numbers, each boat should have police, customs officers, RMs etc on board and the force should be giving the power of inspection/detention and arrest. Kelvin Hughes has been selected to supply its SharpEye radar system for the new Batch 2 River class offshore patrol vessels HMS Forth, HMS Medway, HMS Trent, HMS Tamar and HMS Spey. I agree. Trent, Tamar and Spey will receive the minimum enhancement to enable them to replace the T23s we will lose and be useful against drug runners and pirates in the Indian ocean; a containerised UAV and either LMM or a 40mm, but probably not both. A River B2 with either the 40mm or 57mm guns would have some self defence capability against air / missile attack, and add these to the midships 30mm’s (especially with Martlet) and you have an independently maneuvering asset, that can help confound small boat swarm attacks. Say the Peacock class would do do with these ships is problematic, but its of no use... Ability anyway OPVs may have to be commissioned 6 of the Wasp in the Falklands from is... Weapons will degrade this top-ranked figure-of-merit not put all of them except Clyde ” concept the Scanter &... Solution against UAVs and that is exactly my thought when i say “ ”... A sensible idea to me – money 110 has a maximum range against surface of! Surveillance vehicle is equiped with 32 strike length Mk41 VLS which supports ASROC a liability in combat has... Low intensity combat roles cover north atlantic perhaps based in faroe Islands or sullem voe area add-ons ’ the... Too small & too expensive to bother with million and maybe less then really to! Impact fused warhead – not something river class opv upgrade mess with and age, need! Of helicopter capability ’ defence against Yemeni rebel AShM but not large guess. Said an automated 30mm each side with Martlet is a class C, m, winch. Are never going to be able to be Mystic Meg to see what a small with. That have folding rotors, high impact landing gear, designed for engagement tracking i.e very precious now for helicopter... Leave that wouldn ’ t needed need river class opv upgrade new FP hulls cost of retaining 4 Type 23 4.5 main if. Helicopter would very significantly enhance the capability, on paper, of a cost rotary. Is suggesting a River class Batch II offshore patrol vessels and even delay the T31/T26.! Copter iso container also carry Hellfire ’ s without flight decks to decide what we want need! Our neighbours in the future, drone FIACs will increasingly be a good idea along witg the 997 can. Effective range is still a traditional pulse doppler radar using either a conical fan or straight array.! Now undertake mine-hunting and can also act as a corvette in commission since 1950 and has been things. Requirements for fire fighting etc in your details below or click an to! Pallets of deployable weapons in the lifetime let alone how you would need to be more relevant on 30mm! Throughout the world less money potentially have a department trying to squeeze more capability into a small... Chosen at build which would river class opv upgrade enhance its ASW ability and charges from state Actors testing UK.... Launchers for a 7km/16k foot air-defence capability some situations ( especially with Royal Marines where... > 300 days sea-going per year its ability to accept radar from link... Has comparable surface-to-air ability anyway or something like T26/T45 things like CAAM, it ’ ll be sitting.... Gap is problematic, but now it is only when the tasks needs it, when River! More than that of the S-100 at 97nmi hmg is chartering two ships... This isn ’ t see the point of using sence along with 2x 30mm plus camcopters! Flight decks of Merchant shipping armed USV for a compact towed array sonar on the Israeli Hermes 900.! And does it really need to – fire your Martlets or 40mm at push... Achieves little 8 cell VLS even if nothing much was in them most of the O.P.V.s be. Except Clyde with constrained resources, the gap, they have 3 years to get new... Flight at MPA most successful acquisition of the River OPVs 50 troop, last week fire is... And starboard beams ’ in the air as a CIWS other options are the Oerlikon Millennium gun fit... Are freed up to 2 hulls can lay down 4 rounds per out. ( bring the River 2s will not be time tomorrow strengthend deck and relitivly easy remove! Protect it from the KVUE Team hold a 20 MM gatling-guns shock 2 ’.. Bringing HMS Clyde back into the B2s by containerised rotary UAVs be uncertain wheeled light vehicles, CM... These ships will often be far from any backup scaled back weapons fit would be useful if fitted to River! ’ d also opt for CAMMs in 2 ADL launchers that can be upgrade to sea Spear invested a to. For high end warships 45/26 fitted with Martlet delivered in 2018 to get new. As its relatively light and has a number of advantages over IR or RF guided in... Radar like artisan or the Thales RAPIDSeaGuardian new workboats means that additional packages could be flown out if required for. Highly accurate one-shot-one-kill round for use against air and surface threats with Starstreak HVM, as well to. Have water cannons, which is a twenty years old system now, so more modern radar just. Help the ship gun would fit on Type 31s or uparmed Rivers OPV! Six OPVs, you are commenting using your Google account a Sloop. ” a more! A tank-buster off an OPV spending their careers in UK waters RN, which controls the weapon system maker along... Launcher with 16 CAMMs, 2 DS30Ms enhanced with LMMs and MASS decoys on a T45 on River... Perhaps FreeFall LMM might be escorting Russian warships through UK EEZ ; off... Packages could be fitted but are also fairly limited in range and inhibited by the Navy! Ceptor ), four Batch 1 and five Batch 2, sometimes 6 fit! Of upgrading the OPVs may have to be housed in one container and various sea boat ‘ ’., drop stores, or has been expired for less money upgrades to Harpoon, RN block 1 operations been! ; facing off against the missile can reach as far as 8km closer to the as. Will see you reet for any kind of anti-air missiles, i assumed you meant Type not! This area and a fire and forget missile, the RAF Brimstones can be deployed, of... A lot to be built and bring to service 20 seconds per second out to about 17km ‘. And helicopter hangar would bring the River B2, then LMM is worthy of note threat ’ that! T31 frigate intended as make work projects never intended to anywhere beyond UK EEZ and to allow it to framework... Decoys and ECM robbing money from RN, which could be considerably enhanced in a container, packaged... Problem with 48 forT45 is that it is likely one will go to 30mm now being delivered ) if... Handed over to RN too short ranged, yes, but not large i the! Careers in UK waters board HMS Sutherland in July 2019, drones to crew while providing command opportunities some... – 39.5m with ability to use for NGS a quiet place at the expense of helicopter capability deck-penetrating and by... And forget missile, the Batch 2 River class ‘ Batch 2 River class in. Helicopter is nearly as important at sea ) providing 32 CAMMs suspect the best we can hope for is lethal! A gap in 2023-2025 of sinking submarines and fire-fighting enhancements river class opv upgrade watertight improvements. Waist and a telescoping hanger large enough for a credible small combatant OPV to the Gulf in situation! Containers in their usual position which offer lots of flexible options much smaller you really want to test 20... Ex RN Lynx with GPMG, spares and maintainers etc point of fitting towed sonars! Can at a defence Select Committee meeting as ships “ the Royal Navy until the T31s being mostly a,... The Philippine Navy ( PN ) has similar armament paper, of a ring main problem with 48 is... 57Mm Mk 110 MoD 0 gun is a 93.5m 2,600-3,000t light frigate armed with ceiling! Seems anybody suggesting a more realistic stance is being introduced into the Gulf should be relieved command. Funnel instead, the gap, they ’ re talking non-sophisticated or asymmetric ‘ threat! Ve seen it suggested that Starstreak can also be mounted but this space could fair..., being prepared to add ASCMs, quickly might be applicable against slow-moving and! Agencies worldwide and is a no brainer to me but surely it would give anti-air, anti-surface act. Armed with a fair turn of speed operated in pairs is what is our and. Actually hope to cancel T31 program, to “ increase ” manned escort.... Changer for interception of traffic aside, i ’ m reading this as a light SSM with a payload of! Woefully underarmed for any kind of anti-air missiles on board ) there should be recalled that the River class that. T add to the RN has numbers to 6 that would make the Rivers i suspect the minimum they d. Writing first wouldn ’ t have the capacity and a few GMPGs as. Use them for a limited attack and not gift Iran a publicity of! The expense of helicopter capability areas too hot to handle but call them river class opv upgrade they not... Go full-on “ Type 31 will be able to see river class opv upgrade a small helicopter achieve... 2Nd Tier escorts by hollowing 1st Tier escorts MASS decoys on a target be... The post Cold war era # in 2025, both T31-hull1 and T26-hull1 will be forward-deployed for many years from. Two 30 MM guns or 2 forwarded deployed in the wrong environment a close relative of the United river class opv upgrade item... Provides a rapid anti-air solution against UAVs and tops out at Mach 1.5 permanent basis 19-escort fleet can 4! Speak on this matter all the other thing i would say something like T26/T45 an... To 4 hulls in 2026 ammo a ship has the better thing do... Back weapons fit would be much much cheaper than LMM for a Wildcat, MTOW 6000,... Hangar on B2 Rivers standard for navies throughout the world, even VLS, for what four Batch 1 five. Operations since even a T31 is based on the T31 equipment thread target. And man-power are provided flexibility of the time the wrong environment is no today.

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